"The wish to hurt, the momentary intoxication with pain, is the loophole through which the pervert climbs into the mind of ordinary men.- Jacob Bronowski 1908-74: The Face of Violence (1954)
"The infliction of cruelty with a good conscience is a delight to moralists. That is why they invented Hell."
- Bertrand Russell 1872-1970 Sceptical Essays (1928)
ON TORTURE
· Dan W. Cook So army rangers can be waterboarded during train but the people at war with us are out of bounds?
November 18 at 3:05pm
Dear Danny:
Would we want our enemies to torture our soldiers? Also, in their mind, doesn't our torturing them legitimate their torturing us. Lastly, I suspect that enduring waterboarding when you know it is a training exercise is a bit different than being tormented at the hands of a real enemy.
Best - Randy
November 18 at 3:09pm
·Marilyn Tallio Duran Under torture you'd say anything...wouldn't hold up in court. Duh!
November 18 at 9:01pm
Tom S. Quite true... some would rather allow our enemies to slaughter our innocents than bring them to justice, if it makes them uncomfortable in the process. God help us all (I realize that means nothing to most reading this comment) if we fall to this line of thinking. Oooops, correction - we already have. This mass murderer is found innocent of murder.
November 18 at 11:07pm
Dear Tom: My objection to torture doesn't make me any less patriotic than you. In fact, this terrorist gangster, Ghailani, is guilty and would have been found as such had the charges not been thrown out BECAUSE he was tortured. We do agree ...on one thing, the worst thing we do is to slaughter one another (Thou shalt not kill). It's no accident that you use the word "innocent," a part of my pride in being an American has to do with our justice system and the fact that you or I, should we be charged with a crime, like murder, would stand trial under the presumption that we are innocent until proven guilty. what that means is that should we be tortured before a verdict is rendered, our prosecutors would essentially be torturing a potentially innocent person. As for Ghailani's future, he will do twenty to life in a "supermax" federal prison where he will spend more time in solitary and enjoy fewer privileges that those under the most restrictive measures at Guantanamo. Lastly, we Americans pride ourselves on love of country AND our foundational Christian principles, one of which says, "do unto others as you would have them do unto you."
November 19 at 7:39am
Randy, Just to clarify, I don't feel that your opinion makes you any less patriotic. The beauty of our democracy is that we are all allowed to have opinions, express them, and vote for for those who favor them. In my opinion, the guilty mas...s murderer wasn't excused because of the interrogation techniques, but because a weak-minded government administration lacked the intestinal fortitude to treat him for what he was. I also believe those techniques saved lives. I realize that some would equate America with Al Qaeda but to my mind, there is a huge difference. However, I respect your opinion and appreciate your passion. As an independent, I personally prefer to see the pendulum somewhere around the center of its swing, rather than at either end. I think that is the story of the last two elections. It's now the independents that control the outcome, much to the chagrin of the left and right. I like to think of us as "Equal Opportunity Offenders". Take care, hope to see you sometime soon.See More
13 hours ago
OK, so we treat (torture) a person "for what he [is]." The moral question then becomes, should we pursue these "interrogation techniques" knowing that there will inevitably be a few innocents tortured? Is that acceptable to you? Also, I ass...ume your stance on this implies a tacit approval that our enemies exercise the same "intestinal fortitude" in inflicting torture techniques on our sons and daughters. I don't "equate America with Al Qaeda," but it makes no difference whether one is a Frenchman, Englishman, Iraqi, or Yooper, we are all equal as human beings in the eyes of God. Finally, should there be any rules of war? Perhaps the whole issue is an antiquated idea anchored in some romantic notion that rules of civility can be applied to immoral violence of the hig
hest order. But wait a minute, isn't that the way our enemies think in indiscriminately flying jets into skyscrapers and randomly blowing up innocent men, women, and children? Best - Randy
15 minutes ago
ON GEORGE W. BUSH’S LEGACY
· David Andrew Speer Isnt it about time to stop picking on Bush?
Saturday at 5:25pm
Sunday at 5:40am
Robert Ojala Glantz To quote Kim French: "Lots of not, tons of none." I'll quit picking on the Chimp when he's behind bars for war crimes and we've repaired the immense damage he did to our nation.
Sunday at 9:10am
David Andrew Speer Well I guess its true that people still pick on Clinton and Kennedy and Nixon: it never 
stops on either side.
Sunday at 9:14am
Gerald Kippola How about the 100,000 wounded out of iraq-is it time for them to
forget 'the' dubya? How about the civilian wounded?
Sunday at 9:59am
David Andrew Speer I didnt say forget, I said grow up! the presidents are not that different from each other, hasnt Obama expanded the war in Afganistan? how many people has he killed in the last 2 years? Is he a war criminal?
Sunday at 10:04am
Gerald Kippola Don't take your fox news glasses off if you are not ready for a reality burst
Sunday at 10:42am
Randall Tessier Grow up? That's your answer to the friends and relatives of the hundreds and thousands of dead human beings who have been murdered. And for what? Considering the cost and consequence of the war, would it be worth the life of your son or daughter. This thread is about one man's decisions, and his responsibility in making those choices. If you would like to talk about Lincoln, Hoover, or Obama, that's another conversation. Go tell Pat Tilman's parents to "grow up."
Sunday at 10:48am
David Andrew Speer I'm saying it is silly to attack Bush, he didnt do anything different war wise than any other President did, has done and will do -- I think its a lot of artificial anger over the victims because people dont like Bush's other programs, the evidense of that is the liberals dont attack (often or with as much vehemence) the Democratic presidents that are in office while people die, as for example Obama.
Sunday at 11:26am
Gerald Kippola Keep believing your pile of stinkin horseshit. Your delusion suits you.
Sunday at 11:45am
· Brigitte
"Silly to attack?" "Artificial anger over victims?"
How sad.
When we, as a country, have lost the capacity to question the motives and actions of the government -- regardless of party affiliation -- or criticize those who do, then we are ...neglecting to engage in the type of discourse that is necessary for the function of a healthy democracy.See More
Sunday at 12:34pm
Dear David: What's imperative is that we listen to each other with mutual respect, even though we might disagree. I could launch an attack on Obama's policies that might surprise you, but that's not the issue here. Just forget the partisans...hip for a minute and imagine this: heavily armed soldiers in full battle armor, essentially foreign invaders, have occupied your town. Some of your friends and neighbors, perhaps even family, have been killed in the crossfire during the occupation. My point is this: when you speak of "people dying" under democrats or republicans, you treat death as an abstraction, as something disconnected from the world you and I live in. Death and dying are serious matters, even when the innocent child murdered doesn't happen to be an American like us. I don't think God meant his commandment, "thou shalt not kill" to apply only to Western Christians.See More
Sunday at 1:31pm
David Andrew Speer well said Randy. I'm happy to be in a place and time where we can agree and just as a final notion, its the lack of respect (towards Bush, who btw I did not vote for) that I was originally complaining about.
Sunday at 4:26pm
